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Jen Clinehens Choice Hacking: Drive Sales Through Simplicity with Jen Clinehens
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Choice Hacking: Drive Sales Through Simplicity with Jen Clinehens

Are you drowning in the sea of marketing complexities? Dive into this episode where Jen Clinehens, a wizard in the realm of Choice Hacking, reveals the blueprint to decluttering the customer journey. Discover the art of simplification to elevate your marketing and customer experience. Jen, with her vast experience helping giants like AT&T and Adidas, unravels the essence of buyer psychology, the magic of productizing services, and the power of the Winston Star framework. Tune in and transform your approach to creating captivating and effective customer experiences.


Key Takeaways

  • Understanding Buyer Psychology: Jen emphasizes the importance of grasping what motivates buyers. Knowing the psychological triggers that influence purchasing decisions can help businesses tailor their marketing strategies to align with consumer behavior effectively.
  • The Power of Simplification:Jen advocates for streamlining the customer experience to remove unnecessary complexities. By simplifying the buying process, businesses can enhance customer satisfaction, increase conversions, and drive sales.
  • Productizing Services:Jen suggests that businesses can benefit from productizing their services, which involves packaging services as products. This approach makes it easier for customers to understand, compare, and purchase services, thereby improving the customer journey.
  • Addressing Emotional Moments:Fixing painful or frustrating moments in the customer journey should take precedence over enhancing positive ones. By addressing negative experiences first, businesses can significantly improve overall customer satisfaction.
  • Effective Presentation Frameworks:Utilizing frameworks like the Winston Star can help businesses create more memorable and impactful presentations. This approach aids in conveying complex ideas succinctly and engagingly, enhancing communication with potential clients or stakeholders.


Choice Hacking: Drive Sales Through Simplicity Transcript

Rich:  A recognized authority in applying behavioral science to marketing and customer experience, my guest today has worked with brands like AT&T, McDonald’s, Adidas, and Starbucks, and is now the founder and managing director of customer experience consultancy Choice Hacking.

She hosts a popular behavioral science podcast, also called Choice Hacking, which you can find on all major streaming platforms. She’s also the author of several books available on Amazon and her website, choicehacking.com. Today we’re going to be learning more about choice hacking and its impact on customer experience in your business, with Jen Clinehens. Jen, welcome to the show.

Jen: Hi, thanks Rich for having me.

Rich:  I’m always curious about this. What was the incident or moment in time that got you to create your business, Choice Hacking?

Jen: That’s a great question. And actually, I think what it really came down to, because I started Choice Hacking as the side gig when I was working in ad agencies. I was using and applying behavioral science to customer experience in marketing and going to talk to these clients who knew what behavioral science and marketing psychology were, but they didn’t really understand it.

And up until that point, a lot of people who were academics or very smart people, but not necessarily the best communicators for people who are not in a consumer psychology field or with that type of background. They had basically confused the clients. And to be completely frank, I was confusing the clients a little bit too.

So I decided I would start a blog and I would act as a translator between these really brilliant academics, studies, all their findings, and I would sit in the middle and translate it for CMOs, CEOs, and people who they thought it was interesting – behavioral science – but they didn’t really understand how it could apply to them. So it started as a blog, and it just grew from there.

Rich: I love it. I love it. Now when you’re at your next cocktail party and somebody corners you and says, “How do you define choice hacking?” What’s your go to answer for that?

Jen: Yeah, so choice hacking, essentially, we believe that businesses win when they know what makes buyers tick. So that’s what we do. Any kind of service in between those two things. So I guess the elevator pitch is, we do courses, coaching, and consulting to help businesses figure out how buyers tick.

Rich: All right. And it’s all based on this idea of choice hacking, lowercase choice hacking. How does it impact the customer experience? Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Jen: Oh, gosh. In a million different ways. The way that I like to talk about behavioral science and marketing psychology to people who are maybe new to it or understand it or nibble around the edges. It’s essentially a lens, right? It’s a lens through which you look at marketing and customer experience.

My background, the first industry that I was in once I left classical music and came into marketing and business, was as a marketer. So I did digital marketing. I did innovation when I was AT&T. I did digital customer experience. I did retail experience when I worked with McDonald’s and Adidas and a bunch of these other kinds of companies. And I did omni channel experience. So I’ve worked on everything from, as we would say, TVCs, so television commercials, all the way down to how do we actually design a product page? What price should this be?

So you can think of it from I guess the big top of the funnel, all the way down to the little bottom of the funnel, if you want to talk about funnels. And really what it does is it gets you into the head of the customer, or becoming an advocate for the customer, but almost like you can see backstage as well as front stage, so you can see what people are doing. You can observe it and then you can look at behavioral science and psychology and try to explain it, like people are doing x. We think it’s because of loss aversion or scarcity or the peak end rule, things like that. And then we can use that to change customer behavior.

Now with that comes things like, how do we capture people’s attention? So I do a lot of ‘salience analysis’, is what it’s called, using predictive AI tools that I’ve used for seven or eight years now to, for example, look at a poster in a restaurant and say, “Are people understanding that we want to sell them this particular item for this particular price?” Use the salience AI and it can tell us that people are completely missing the price and they’re looking directly at the logo or whatever it might be.

It can help us figure out how to create memories. So how do we wear a groove in somebody’s brain so that a new product or a new brand becomes something that when it’s time for them to choose something in that category, if it was Coca-Cola, for example, “I’m thirsty, I want a soda, who am I going to pick?” That’s why Coca-Cola spends billions and billions of dollars being a steady drip in the background of everybody’s life, right? So that when it comes time for you to say, “I’m thirsty, I want a soda”, and you walk into a gas station or wherever, you go straight for Coke.

Building memory structures, attention, thinking about things like emotion, and then also down to what I think most people know or what most people think of when they think of behavioral economics or behavioral science, which would be things like nudging. So designing how choices are presented to people to increase the chances they’re going to make one decision or the other.

Rich: Now Jen, you referenced Coca-Cola and millions or billions of dollars that they spend on these things. You’ve worked with AT&T, McDonald’s, and Adidas. These are all giant corporations. And I’m sure there’s a lot of small to medium sized business owners listening in who are like that’s great for them, but I can’t imagine how I could actually do some of this. So what if we are a small to medium sized business and we want to start leveraging some of this choice hacking. What’s a good place to start? How do your smaller clients maybe get started with this whole process?

Jen: Yeah, I mean it’s good of you to mention that too, because we really do work with businesses of all sizes. And occasionally we do work with startups who are creating a product, for example. But usually it’s somewhere between, hey, we’ve just started, we just turned a profit, to the even hundreds of millions or billions of dollars in revenue, because the principles are the same, right? It doesn’t really matter. I should count. I’ll put a little asterisk next to that. It doesn’t matter what size your business is.

So for example, if you’re a smaller brand, let’s say between one and five million in annual revenue. You are going to have a different set of challenges, a different set of behavioral challenges, memory challenges, attention challenges, than McDonald’s. You know what I mean? And there’s a reason for that. Because it’s more about those big brands preserving the brand. It’s about expressing the brand. It’s about limiting choice.

But I think the number one place that any business can start to make improvements based on behavioral science and psychology is to think about things like simplicity. How simple is your experience? How simple is it to interact with you? How many messages are you trying to tell your customers? Are you trying to tell them 15 different things to 15 different places? Because every business has that problem. And that problem is only exacerbated the bigger the company gets, the more countries it’s in, the more places you can go, the more types of stores or restaurants you could go into.

And in some ways, when you’re a smaller business, I don’t want to say easier. Because simplicity, even though it’s very effective, is not easy. And the reason for that being, there’s some psychology behind it, right? You make something. It’s something called the endowment effect. I helped create this. I worked with a marketer. I made it myself in a smaller business. I created this ad. And now you’re going to tell me that I have 10 marketing messages and I need to have one. I like those other nine. I made those. Those are really good. Simplicity, like I said, it’s very helpful.

We know from all of the science, I think, called simplicity theory. Simplicity theory that customers actually will prefer and will choose a company that has a simpler experience where it’s easier to make a decision. They don’t feel like they’re being overloaded by options and all of that. But again, you have to fight this. Either I own this as the entrepreneur or we’re a small team and we came up with it, or part of my job is coming up with 25 different ads a year, and you’re going to tell me I should only be doing five. Does that mean they’re not going to want me around anymore?

So there’s a lot of emotions tied up in this idea of simplification. But to me, that’s the number one place where every business needs to spend some time and attention.

Rich: I love that. And so I’m just selfishly thinking about myself, as we often do, and running a digital agency. And so we have all these different offers, websites, branding, SEO, paid search, organic, all these sorts of things going on social media. And we offer them all, and I have experts on all of them. But with the idea of simplicity, how might a business like mine simplify either the messaging to our ideal customer, or make it easier for them to engage with us where maybe we might have a deeper, more nuanced conversation? What are some things that we can do online or off that might help with that?

Jen: Yeah, I can tell you the number one thing that I’ve seen in big ad agencies, small ad agencies, in my consultancy is productization. So productization is something that a lot of agencies really balk against, right? Because they’re like whoa, you can’t just boil down what we do into a menu of things that clients can choose from. That doesn’t work.

But when it comes to actual buying of services and searching for services. Let’s just a step back a second. So there’s this principle of category entry points. I did not come up with this. A very smart person named Jenni Romaniuk, with the Ehrenberg Bass Institute. She writes a lot about this when it comes to B2B marketing. And it’s just like the example with Coca Cola. I’m thirsty, I want a soda. I’m thirsty. Oh, I’ll pick a Coke. It’s the same thing with an agency. You have to ask yourself, what is CMO sitting around and asking themselves? Are they banging on a table and going, “Get me a behavioral science consultancy?” Very few of them are doing that.

Which is why choice acting is not a behavioral science consultancy. We use behavioral science, but we are not a behavioral science consultancy because two people have banged on a table and asked for a behavioral science consultancy. And those people called Rory Sutherland, who is a very famous behavioral science guy. They’re not calling me, right? So you have to pick your battles, but you have to think about, what is that buying occasion.

And if you create products, and you create content, and you create searchability around certain problems that you know that these CMOs and CEOs of these target companies that you want to work with have, they will find you. They will see, “Oh my god, this person has a solution for exactly what my problem is.” And then you can create the relationship and start to figure out, “Oh we’ve productized it as this, but you’re a giant multinational corporation. Maybe you need this plus that.” Or, “You’re a smaller business, so maybe you need this minus that.: But it gives people a place, I think, to grab onto and have something to chew.

And this kind of goes into this whole idea of mental availability, which I’m sure you know quite a bit about. But the idea of does a company come to mind when you have a problem? And it just becomes so much easier, I think, when you make the actual choice or the actual buying decision simpler. And yes, that might mean that you still have a ton of things to choose from. And in fact, I think this advice I’ve just given, simplicity is really important. It is, but there’s a whole thing about the choice paradox.

Too many choices make us upset. Smaller number of choices is good. That’s actually not as nuanced as it should be. So a lot of choices can do a job for certain types of companies. If you went on amazon.com and they had 15 products in three different colors, Jeff Bezos would not be the richest guy on the planet, right? In a retail environment like that, a lot of trust, a lot of options, knowing you can do a lot of things actually attracts people to you.

I can trust a retail company. I can trust a Walmart because they’ve got a million items on the shelf. Of course I can trust Walmart. But then when it comes time to picking cereal, if there’s 25 different types of cereal, it’s going to be harder for me to pick cereal, right? So simplicity in choice. It matters what kind of brand you are, how mature you are, what you’re selling, who the customer is.

So if you have a customer for example, who’s going through their day to day and they’re overwhelmed with information, that could be somebody like a CEO or CMO, and that could also be somebody who’s living below the poverty line. That person has a lot of decisions they have to make every day. That person has a lot of tradeoffs they have to make every day. And some studies of people who are living in that socioeconomic environment, basically show that their brains are exhausted all the time because you constantly have $20 in your pocket, maybe $10 bucks. So you’ve got to decide where that $10 goes. Does it go to buy you lunch? Does it go to buy you groceries? Does it go to pay for your kid’s school lunch?

This is the thing, you have to understand the context to the customer. So this is a really long roundabout way of saying simplicity, I think, for service providers comes down to being buyable. It doesn’t necessarily come down to only having a few options. But I do think that buyability is the productization, but that it’s also having that one unifying idea. What makes you different? And truly what makes you different? Not just we’re people centered, we’re innovative, we’re digital first. You’ve got to dig a little bit deeper to be more distinct in the marketplace, because you want to get into that buyer’s mind, so they bang on the table and go, “I need a digital agency because my email marketing is broken”. “Oh, I remember, I should call this consultancy because they’re a little bit different”. “They stick out of my mind. I saw a little content that they put out.” “I see them in my LinkedIn feed every day.’ These kind of things.

It’s a complicated answer to a simple question. But that’s the nature of why we have behavioral science and psychology experts to help us translate all of this.

Rich: Absolutely. I’m just thinking about some of the businesses that we worked with in the past and some of the websites that I see on a daily basis, and it’s this constant battle for what information goes on the homepage and how to organize that. Can any of the lessons from choice hacking or behavioral observations give us some sense of what should go on the homepage, or how do we get people to the right part of our website if they are coming in through the front door?

Jen: Yeah, it’s a great question. Personalization is the ideal situation, right? If you can tell, I think I have some examples in Choice Hacking the book, but I also have some examples on the blog and some articles around especially digital companies, being able to say, “Hey, I noticed that you’re visiting me from blah.

I actually had – they’re going to remain nameless because I don’t know if this is still legal at this point – when I visited their website, I was on the campus of a big company. So you would think IP addresses and things. And they said, “Hey, we think you’re visiting us from a big company. Is that true? And I was like, “Yeah, sure. “They reworked the website to show me things that would be relevant to this big company. And I thought, first of all, that’s brilliant. That’s really smart. Second of all, it’s a little scary. I’m not quite sure if this is legal. I hope it is. And third of all, it’s what a brilliant way to take a lot of information and make it a little bit more personal to me.

And obviously, with things like account-based marketing and all that you can send out emails to people at certain companies that talk about certain things. But in an ideal world, the answer to that is personalization. We don’t live in an ideal world, however. When I’ve worked with choice hacking clients, for example I worked with a SaaS startup in the innovation and IP space, and they had two different products and therefore two different sets of customers. And their website, when you landed on it before I worked with them, was a very kind of general thing that said something like, “Innovation is important. Patents are important.” And I’m like, if I’m one of these target groups of people, this message is not suiting me one way or the other. It doesn’t tell me anything.

And I think that’s what in a lot of SaaS or agencies where you just get this kind of, we’re people first, we like customers, whatever. This milk toast means nothing. It doesn’t really say anything to anybody. Frase will go on the homepage, and then it’s up to you to scroll around and go see the work or whatever it might be.

But what we did when I worked with them was basically say, okay, you’ve got these two ideal customers. Let’s just do an A/B test. We’ll test the homepage you have now, and then let’s test a homepage that says something like, “We do IP”, and you can go here, or you can go there. We have this tool for you if you’re this person, we have this tool for you if you’re that person. And what happens? And obviously their measure of success was book calls, and they saw an immediate change. Even though I think most UX designers would look at that and go, oh my God that’s a nightmare.

Behaviorally, if you look at what people do when they get to a website, they’re hunting for information that’s pertinent to them. And we knew that customers were doing that. So we just designed an experiment to see, will they respond to that? Now, will we test into some evolutions of that? Probably. But it’s literally just from the idea of people land on the homepage, rather than wasting their time with something that’s doesn’t really meet anyone’s needs, let’s break it into two and say, if you want this, go here. Or if you’re this person, go there. And then very quickly got them where they needed to go.

Rich: And then had those one-on-one conversations on deeper pages. That makes a lot of sense.

Jen: Yeah, exactly.

Rich: So one of the things as I was looking at your own website, you talk about customer journeys, which is always a fascinating topic for me, and using choice hacking to create a customer journey map. Can you speak to us a little bit about that?

Jen: Yeah, so I have been using behavioral science along with customer journey maps for six or seven years now. Somebody posted something on LinkedIn last year, and they said, “Has anybody ever thought of using behavioral science and customer journey maps together?” And I was like, wait a minute. Nobody’s doing that. I just assumed everyone was doing that. It just seemed very natural to me to do that.

But yeah, no, I’m a big believer in customer journey maps, I would, say for almost every company. Especially if you don’t have one, or you’re getting to the point where things are getting complicated, you’re kind of juggling things. To use the digital world verbiage, your funnel is leaking. An evocative term, but you’ve got this process that people are going through and they’re falling off, and you’re not sure why.

A customer journey map is a great way to basically get under the skin of your buyer. What are they doing? What do they need? What are they experiencing now? And what’s wild is, it doesn’t matter what size your organization is, whether you’re one person with the website or there’s 30,000 people in your organization, very few people go through the customer experience themselves.

And so if you do that in the process of making a customer journey map, a lot of people are just shocked by what happens. They’re like, wait a minute, we do that. And then we do that. That doesn’t make any sense. Of course it doesn’t. But everyone’s so stuck into their jobs, that they just forget, “Hey, I need to experience this like a person experiencing this for the first time.” So I think customer journey maps are really good at that.

To me, the thing that is the secret sauce of a customer journey map is the emotional journey. And we know from behavioral science there is a psychological or behavioral science rule, quote unquote, called the “peak end rule”. And a very smart man named Daniel Kahneman, who you might have heard his name, Nobel Prize winner, wrote Thinking Fast and Slow, came up with this in a research study about colonoscopies of all things. And basically the thinking was, when you have an experience, deciding whether that experience is good or bad is like this average of every moment, right?

So we study colonoscopies because, obviously I don’t know myself, but apparently there’s pain involved in a colonoscopy. And it can peak, and it can end, and it can do all these things. So going into this experiment thinking, when people say something was good or bad or painful or not painful, they’re averaging everything out. But what they found was that people were determining whether something was painful, or how to remember it if it was good or bad, based off of the emotional peak. So the pain peak in the experiment with the colonoscopies and the ending.

So if the peak of the pain was at a 10, and the ending was at an 8, but then the rest of it was at a zero, that person was like, “Oh my God, that was painful and terrible. And I hated it.” As opposed to the person who maybe averaged out at a five. It’s interesting to look at this and say, if we take the emotional journey from the customer journey map, and we think about the peak end rule, and we figure out what are the most emotional moments, that could be a high or low. And then we think about the ending, which could be different for different types of customers. That helps us prioritize our marketing budget. It helps us you prioritize your marketing budget. It helps you figure out those moments that punch above their weight.

So you can start to concentrate on things that really matter. Which, if you’re in a smaller company, that really matters. It matters in any size company, but if you only have so much time, so much attention, you can’t hire anybody. You can’t find any more money. It just is what it is. You have to concentrate on those moments and make the biggest difference. And so that’s why I think customer journey map is so great, because it really helps you cut to the chase of what’s really going to make a difference for customers. What’s going to move the needle for our business.

Rich: So Jen, with that idea of the peak end rule, so if I have a customer process, an intake process, and we know that one element of it is especially difficult. Like creating content, if the client’s responsible for creating content, whatever it may be. Do I spend all of my time trying to minimize that aspect of it, or do I spend time adding more pleasurable experiences towards the end of it so that’s what they remember?

Jen: If it were me, I would fix everything that’s broken first. Anything that’s painful in those emotional moments, those most intense emotional moments, fix those first. The ending is important, but I think what happens is you get a lot of people who say, “Oh, let’s just send them a fruit basket at the end of the engagement. They’ll remember us and it’ll be great.” Yeah, okay, whatever. But that doesn’t fix anything if the actual engagement or the thing, the task that they had to complete is incredibly painful to do, right? That would be my advice is, Ii that emotional moment is a low, try to fix that before you start concentrating on, we’ve got to do something perfect at the end.

Rich: Because that’s going to  be very memorable. That’s going to be very memorable to the customer. And that’s what they’re going to probably tell their friends and colleagues.

Jen: Exactly. Think about it. If you worked with a vendor and it was a nightmare, and then they sent you a basket of fruit at the end, is that basket of fruit going to make up for the nightmare?

Rich: No. And if it’s tomatoes in that basket, I’m throwing them at the vendor. So yeah. This isn’t exactly about digital marketing, but I did see this on your site, and I was curious. You talk about using choice acting to improve presentations, either webinars or in person. Can you just give us a couple of your top tips on how we can do this to ultimately land a better presentation?

Jen: Yeah. I actually do have a course on this, if anybody’s interested in it, where I go a little bit deeper into the processes and everything. But one of the things that I found was incredibly helpful. There was an MIT professor. I’m going to forget his first name now. His last name is Winston. And every year at MIT, he would give this sold-out presentation about how to present complicated ideas. Now this guy was an incredibly smart man. He ran MIT’s AI lab for years and years. This is way before AI became trendy, and his audience is people who are getting PhDs at MIT, who have to go teach or they have to present a paper at a conference.

But what’s interesting with that is he created a framework called Winston Star, which has these five things that you have to communicate an idea succinctly a complicated idea. And I started looking at it and I thought, this is really, unsurprisingly, really brilliant. But there’s a lot of psychology and behavioral science underlying why this is working so well. So Winston Star is a really good one to look at. And basically what he says is, you need a slogan. So one thing that people are going to walk away from your presentation with, I think the example that I use in the course is Simon Sinek.

So I’m not a huge fan of Simon Sinek. But his TED Talk, I think, is still the most viewed TED Talk of all time. And there’s a reason for that. It’s a great presentation. And the slogan of that presentation is, “Start with Why”, which is also the name of this book. And I don’t think that’s a coincidence, right? He’s very brilliant at packaging up an idea. Whether you agree with that idea or not is a discussion for another podcast. But the idea of start with why. And I think I went through and counted 15 or 16 times in this five-minute Ted Talk. So if you have that slogan, you’re repeating it over and over, what do you think people are going to remember when they leave the presentation? Are they going to remember, “Start with what?” All the little details. Are they going to remember that chart that you showed? No. They’re going to remember, ‘start with why,’ because you said it a hundred thousand times.

Now for people presenting numbers, think about how you can use numbers and create a story and then create a slogan for that story. Is the story sales are down or is the story, whatever it might be, like our customer’s changing, whatever the story is, you have to think really carefully about it and then repeat it several times and give it enough room to breathe, right? So this is where behavioral science and things start to come in. Because while I use that predictive AI tool where it takes a little heat map, and it tells you where people are paying attention. You can use that on slide decks, too. But if you don’t have a predictive AI tool, you can just say – I call them bus stop moments – which is not from Winston Star, but it’s a very helpful kind of metaphor, right? People fall off the bus all the time, no matter how fascinated you are. Like Steve Jobs introduced the iPhone. I guarantee, I bet you a million dollars somebody in that audience was like, “Oh, what did he say? I wasn’t paying attention.” You know what I mean? Even in the greatest presentation ever of all time, people fall off the bus. You have to create moments where they get back on the bus.

We know people will pay attention to something when it’s the only thing on a slide. There’s a lot of white space and there’s one message. Now what happens if there’s a lot of white space and that one message is ‘start with why’? Oh, I’m back on the bus. I got it. Okay, we’re talking about why. We’re starting with why. Okay, I got it. I’m here for the rest of the story because I fell off the bus, but you gave me an opportunity to get back on the bus.

So slogan is one of those. And there’s, I think, five all together. But there’s an article on my site, if anybody just wants to look it up. It’s called Winston Star, but he talks about simplicity, slogans, a symbol, having a visual representation of your idea. In the example from Simon Sinek, ‘start with why’ it’s a target. I think he’s got what, how, and then why is in the middle. It’s, I think he calls it the golden circle. I have to go back and look at my notes, but there’s a name for it. Nobody remembers the name, but they remember the target as he draws it out on a piece of paper. And that visual symbol works, it sticks in our head because of something called picture superiority effect.

It’s the scientific version of a picture says a thousand words, but a picture, a symbol is also much more memorable. It’s easier to understand. It conveys meaning beyond words. And people remember it. So these elements of Winston Star combined with just what we know about attention, like literal memory how we need to frame actual stories, how we need to frame data, how we pay attention to stories and not just data points.

And then I think also the types of language that we use, I get into quite a bit. But the idea of using concrete language when you can, I think is so important in a presentation. Also important in an agency landing page. People forget vague words, but if you are concrete, you’re specific. If you’re saying something like, “This Big Mac has a fluffy bun, and it has a moist burger patty, and oily mayonnaise”, whatever language you want to use. You remember, you pictured that Big Mac as opposed to, “This Big Mac tastes good.” No, that’s not evocative. The same thing applies to copywriting and presentations or on agency homepages.

Rich: Love it. Jen, this is great. If people want to learn more about you, if they want to learn more about choice hacking, if they want to pick up that course that you referenced, where can we send them online?

Jen: The best place to go is choice hacking.com because I found one good name and I’m bad at naming things. Everything is Choice Hacking. And I’m @ChoiceHacking everywhere you want find me, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. If you look up Choice Hacking, you’ll find me someplace. But the best place to start is just choice hacking.com.

Rich: Awesome. We’ll have those links in the show notes. Jen, thank you so much for your time today.

Jen: Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Rich. I appreciate it.


Show Notes:

Jen Clinehens is revolutionizing customer experiences by unraveling the mysteries of consumer behavior and crafting seamless purchasing pathways. Find out more about how she’s using Choice Hacking to get to the psychology behind consumer decisions with her podcast and courses. And be sure to follow her on your favorite social platform.

Rich Brooks is the President of flyte new media, a web design & digital marketing agency in Portland, Maine, and founder of the Agents of Change. He’s passionate about helping small businesses grow online and has put his 25+ years of experience into the book, The Lead Machine: The Small Business Guide to Digital Marketing.