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Most businesses assume they have a traffic problem when, in reality, they have a conversion problem. In this episode, Irwin Hau explains why small changes to your website can have a big impact on leads and sales. From building trust to simplifying your messaging, he shares practical ways to help your website turn more visitors into customers.
Stop Blaming Your Traffic. Your Website Might Be the Problem.
When leads dry up, the instinct is always the same: run more ads, post more on social, chase more SEO rankings. I get it. More traffic feels like the fix, because it’s the thing you can control with a credit card.
But I sat down recently with Irwin Hau, founder of Chromatics and Conversion Cow, and he drove home the following point: every single piece of marketing you run, your ads, your email signature, your business card, even your car decal, points to one place. Your website.
“If everything points back to your URL, your website, and you can’t get someone off the website onto a telephone,” Irwin told me, “that’s actually the main plug we need to unplug to make things work.” He mentioned a radio station in Melbourne that doesn’t even read out phone numbers anymore. Just the URL. Everything funnels to the site, so if the site doesn’t convert, none of the rest of it matters.
Irwin’s not guessing at this. He’s personally analyzed close to 70,000 websites. Fun fact: before he was a conversion specialist, he was a card illusionist for close to 20 years. He’ll tell you marketing and magic run on the same fuel, human psychology. In his own words: “clearly I need a life outside of doing magic tricks and looking at websites”.
The four questions your website has to answer
Here’s the framework Irwin uses: picture the best first date you’ve ever been on. Four things happened, in order: you found out who the person was, what they were about, why you should be interested, and how to reach them again.
Your website gets asked the exact same four questions, whether you’ve built it to answer them or not: Who are you? What do you do? Why should I choose you? How do I get in touch?
Miss any one of those, and your visitor leaves the date early.
Say less, mean more
Irwin combines the first two questions, who you are and what you do, because most businesses blow both by using too many words, or the wrong words. He gave me his own bad example: “I’m a website conversion specialist. I use human psychology to look at how people interact with websites so that if you’re driving lots of marketing, you can get back to a phone call or lead for a sale.” His words, and even he admitted it went over his own head.
Compare that to what he says now: “We make websites that make your phone ring.” Seven words. Nobody needs a glossary.
This is basically the iPod problem in reverse. Apple didn’t launch with “5GB of storage in a compact form factor.” They said “1,000 songs in your pocket.” Same product, completely different amount of thinking required from the customer. Irwin’s rule: you get about seven to ten words before you’ve lost them. Use them on the problem you solve, not your job title.
“We’re professional and on time” is not a personality
The third question, why should I choose you, is the one Irwin says separates businesses that convert from businesses that blend in. And most businesses answer it badly, by listing things every competitor also claims: professional, on time, on budget, good after-service. As Irwin put it, “I thought that was the reason why you’re in business.”
His test is what he calls the logo test: cover up your logo and your company name. If a visitor still can’t tell it’s you, specifically you and not your three closest competitors, you haven’t answered the question.
He also introduced me to a term I hadn’t heard before: proof density. One testimonial in a little carousel doesn’t cut it anymore, because with AI, anyone can generate five glowing (fake) reviews in ten seconds flat. Trust now needs to be layered: real case studies, real numbers, real specifics, stacked throughout the site rather than parked in one box and forgotten. Not so much that it feels desperate, but enough that a skeptical visitor runs out of reasons to doubt you.
Call yourself. Really.
The fourth question, how do people get in touch, sounds like the easy one. It isn’t. Irwin’s advice here is simple, and that’s exactly why most businesses skip it: call your own phone number. Fill out your own contact form. Submit it. See what happens.
He told me about a client whose form quietly accepted incomplete submissions and then never sent a confirmation email. Nobody had noticed, because nobody had ever tested it from the customer’s side. I’d add one more to the list: go look at your own thank-you page. It’s the one page you build and then never visit again, and it’s often full of outdated info nobody’s cleaned up in years.
Different visitors also want different ways in. Some people will never pick up a phone. Others want to write you an essay in a form field. Irwin’s point is that you need a mix, phone, email, a short form, maybe a chatbot, because forcing everyone through one channel filters out people who would’ve said yes through a different door.
You don’t need a redesign to fix this
Here’s the myth Irwin most wants to bury: that fixing conversion means an expensive rebuild. It doesn’t. Most of what he described costs nothing but attention. Tighten your seven-word pitch. Swap a generic stock photo for a real one. Put your phone number somewhere visible. None of that requires a developer.
Your next steps
Before you spend another dollar on traffic, go do this today: open your own website and answer Irwin’s four questions honestly, as if you’d never seen the business before. Then call your own phone number and fill out your own form. Fix whatever breaks. It’s the cheapest marketing audit you’ll ever run, and it’s free.
Transcript from Irwin Hau’s Episode
Rich: My next guest is an Australian digital strategist and founder of Chromatix and ConversionCow. Over the past 16 years, he has analyzed more than 60,000 websites and developed the Trust and Authority Design Framework, combining psychology, conversion strategy, and UX to improve how websites convert.
He focuses on how people think and what builds trust online, helping businesses increase engagement, leads, and overall marketing performance. Through Conversion Cow, he brings these principles into a SaaS platform designed to turn websites into high-performing sales tools.
Outside of business, he’s a father, youth mentor, and longtime card illusionist with a deep interest in psychology and human behavior. Today, we’re going to be diving into how to turn traffic into leads with Irwin Hau. Irwin, welcome to the show.
Irwin: Hey, Rich. Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it.
Rich: So before we get into digital marketing and conversion rates, how did you get into card illusions, and what’s your favorite card illusion?
Irwin: Ah, love it, love it. Oh, I might be exposing my age here and stuff. But in 1996, I remember a friend of mine was in math class, and he turned around and said, “Hey, Irwin, check this out.” And out of nowhere he just pulled out a card, similar to if my hands were here, I’d suddenly say, “Hey, watch.” Bang, and suddenly he’s pulled out this, in this case, a pen from nowhere. And you’re like, “Where did that come from?” And I remember that moment got me hooked, and I learned that it wasn’t that he was magical and could read minds, but he had the art of deception and manipulation for entertainment purposes that I want to learn.
And so that got me started, and 20-odd-plus years later, I still love doing card illusions and stuff, and making things appear and reappear and stuff like that. So there you go.
Rich: Now, do you do this professionally, or is it just strictly for your family and friends?
Irwin: It used to be a little bit more professional, I think is a nice way to say it, but I’ve stopped doing that. But instead, I’ve turned my powers for good.
Since running business, I’ve been running business for 17 years, so it’s been a little while now, but same principles. Marketing and magic are similar. It all uses human psychology, and I think that’s why I do what I do. So yeah.
Rich: Excellent. Love the connection. All right. So when most of us see disappointing lead gen results, our first instinct is, “Let’s just throw more traffic at it.” Why do you think we so often overlook the possibilities that the real problem lies at our website, and it’s about conversion?
Irwin: Yeah, no, for sure. And you’re absolutely right. When we’re not sure, we do things that we hear, which is someone’s running an AdWords campaign, they’re doing SEO, they’re doing the socials. But to me, have you noticed that all marketing always points back to one thing? It’s actually your website.
Your website’s on your email signature, it’s on your business card, it’s on your car decal, it’s on your sign. Even radio ads. We’re talking with a radio station here in Melbourne, Australia, and they were saying, “We don’t actually say phone numbers anymore. We actually just give the URL.” And so if everything points back to your URL, your website, if you can’t get someone off the website onto a telephone, that’s actually the main plug or the main thing that we need to unplug in this case to make things work.
And it’s fascinating how many websites I’ve been to. Yes, I’ve analyzed, actually, I think it’s close to 70,000 now than 60,000. Clearly, I need a life outside of doing magic tricks and looking at websites. But there are basic problems and basic errors that you won’t even believe.
In fact, I just had one last week. I said to the fella, “The reason why your website’s not working and the fact that you’re not getting phone calls is you don’t even feature your phone number.” And they couldn’t believe it. They said, “But I thought it was there.” I don’t want to think about it. I want to know it’s there. So things like that.
Rich: All right. You talk about four fundamental questions that every website needs to offer. Would you walk us through what those four are, and then maybe we can take a deeper look at each one?
Irwin: Yeah, for sure. Truth is, you’re not going to remember what I’m going to say, so I just want you to picture and remember the best first date you’ve ever been on. You would’ve seen the person, and four things would’ve happened. You would’ve asked who are you? So imagine you’re on that date. Who are you? What do you do? Tell me more about it. So prove whatever you’re saying is true, because let’s be honest, you can make up a story about yourself. And then, hey, can I have your phone number?
Those four things isn’t just what I just said to my missus, who, we met a while ago. They’re actually the same four questions we ask when we’re on a website. Who are you? What do you do? Why should I choose you? How do I get in touch? And they’re the basics of human psychology when we have a problem, and we want it solved. Not a relationship one, but in this case, a business relationship.
And so they’re the four key things that we’ve found, and how many sites fail, and again, anyone who’s listening, I want you maybe even to stop the podcast, look at your website, and just ask, can your customer identify clearly who you are, what you do, why choose you, and how to get in touch? And can I just say that “why choose you” is the number one most important nowadays? Because let’s be honest, everyone does the same thing, and everyone kind of knows your name. They can see your logo. But what makes you unique? What gives you an unfair advantage? And also, are you making it easy for them to find what I call your cash register? Can they get in touch with you quickly, simply, and easily?
Rich: All right, so let’s break those down one by one. So the first one you mentioned, even though it’s not the most important one perhaps, but it’s who are you? So what are some common ways that, because I’m sure everybody thinks that their website says who they are, but what are some of the common ways that you see failures to this question? How are people not answering that first question?
Irwin: Yeah. I’m going to combine who are you and what do you do, if you don’t mind, because who are you isn’t just, you know, you’re not… Actually, I’ve seen some that don’t even have their logo. Their logo’s not prominent. They don’t even say their own name. But let’s combine those two together to make it easier. Who are you, and what do you do? You fail because you say it in too many words. You fail because you say it in a manner that isn’t easily understood by the customer.
I’ll give you an example. I could walk around saying, “I’m a website conversion specialist. I use human psychology to look at how people interact with websites so that if you’re driving lots of marketing, you can get back to a phone call or lead for a sale.” That honestly just went over my head as well. I could have just said, “We make websites that make your phone ring.” That’s it. And that is a lot easier to understand for the customer. It doesn’t focus about me, but it solves a problem.
And so the biggest one we find is actually in the message and the clarity the moment you get to the website. Let’s make those elevator pitches that you think the elevator takes 10 seconds. It’s actually, you’ve got about 7 to 10 words. If you can’t get it right, you’ve literally failed. So that’s the main one.
Rich: I’m thinking back to a recent episode where we were talking about the first iPod advertisements, “A Thousand Songs in Your Pocket”, which was so much clearer than saying three or five gigs of memory storage. It just immediately put it right into people’s minds and it explained it in very few words, and it got the point across. So that makes a lot of sense.
Irwin, what happens, though, because, you know, I also have been building websites for a long time, and we have clients, and many of them are like, “My audience will get this.” If we’re in a specific industry, do the rules change at all to make it that more specific for that industry, I guess? Like, can we get jargony if we kind of are in a niche industry?
Irwin: Yeah, yeah. Well, in Australia we do say niche instead of niche. I laugh all the time when I’m on podcasts saying that word. But if we are in a niche, what happens is you are allowed to sprinkle some of your keywords, because let’s be honest, you’re running this for your customer, and if they know you really well, that’s fine.
But I would say if we can simplify it for everyone, because let’s be honest, we don’t know who’s looking at your website. We want to make sure we’re inclusive in capturing everyone, people who know you and don’t know you. I think it’s just a fine balance of just testing it, and here’s my favorite one. Just ask your customer, “If I said this, what does that mean to you?” Don’t say, “Do you understand it?” The answer’s always yes or no. It’s, “What does that mean to you in your words?” And if I can’t explain it back, they’re, “Ah, yeah, something like…” that sort of thing, then yeah, we just want to make sure it’s clear.
Rich: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. And my other pet peeve around that area are when somebody has a tagline or the first seven to 10 words that could be removed and put onto any other business in any other industry. Like, “we make anything possible”. Honestly. Or “service is our number one concern”. I’m like, that could be my laundromat or my CPA.
Irwin: Yeah.
Rich: So that lack of specificity, I think, can also be problematic as well.
Irwin: Oh, 100%. We call it the logo test. If I can cover your logo and not realize it’s you, because I want to make sure it’s you. I want to make sure it’s your superpower, not everyone else’s. It’s the same thing. So absolutely, I totally agree with you.
Rich: So the third question, which you said is perhaps the most important, is why should I choose you? And that seems to be where trust, which I know is one of your themes, comes into play.
So what are some of the ways that we can build credibility with visitors who are encountering us for the first time in those first critical seconds when they arrive at our website?
Irwin: Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, there’s so many ways to show trust. And you’re right, it’s actually about building trust and authority quickly and simply. So here’s a couple of usual suspects. Awards, accreditations, logos, testimonials, case studies, all those things show proof because too many businesses say, “We’re good. We’re professional. We’re on time, on budget, on scope, good aftermarket service.” But that’s what every business should be. I thought that was the reason why you’re in business.
And so if that’s all we’re leaning on, saying that’s what we’re credible in, well, no, I think we’ve missed the point. So my favorite question is, “Show me why I should go with you or why you’re the best, but you can’t say, ‘I’m on time. I’m on budget.
I’m on scope. I have good aftermarket service.’ Now tell me, why should I go with you?” And that you don’t have a big team, that you’ve won awards. I’m going to make it really tough. What makes you so different that no other agency or business could take you on, and that you are the obvious first choice?
If you can answer that question, I think you’ve nailed it. If you’ve never thought about it before, I think it’s time to start thinking about that. Because there’s too many businesses out there who are just the same. It’s a ‘me too’ business, and we want to stand out as that kind of prize business, not just another option.
Rich: And on this show we call that The Remarkability Formula, and we have this whole framework for how do you actually define or create that element of remarkability in your business.
For people who haven’t gone through that process before, Irwin, and are listening to you and shocked that they haven’t done this themselves, if you’re working with clients, what are some of the ways that you help them uncover their own remarkability and really stand out in a ‘me too’ type business?
Irwin: Yeah. I’ll give you a really fun, practical one. And I know that sounds kind of funny, but open up your Google reviews or whatever review platform that is in your country. Read your own reviews, what’s good and bad. And if you have none, I think that’s the first tip. Let’s start building those reviews, because reviews do matter.
Then open up your competitors’ websites. Open up their reviews and have a read. What makes them great, and what do they really have room for improvement in? Customers are actually telling you already what makes you different and what makes them different. And so you can actually reverse engineer it. So if you say that Company A doesn’t do this well, why don’t you make that your mantra if you don’t know how to create one, because you are on time, on budget, on scope?
And remember, even if you ask your customers… we had one client who said, “I have no idea.” So we interviewed three of their clients and they all said the same thing. It was actually their framework, it was their attention to detail in the way they did X, Y, Z. All we did was just bundle that. So ask your clients. And also, why not check out those Google reviews as well?
Rich: All right. Makes sense. I know you have this theory around proof density. What does that mean, and how can we tell that we have enough proof on our website?
Irwin: Yeah. Showing proof doesn’t mean much anymore, and that’s because just because I have one or two testimonials on a little bar, that’s it. You know what? With ChatGPT, I could even go, “Write me fake Google reviews,” press Enter. Let’s be honest, I don’t even need AI to do that. It’s not enough.
And so we now coin this word ‘proof density’ in terms of we don’t believe anymore. We have a BS radar that’s really alert and high. And so hitting people again, “Oh, you want proof? I’ve got this. I’ve got these logos. We’ve got these awards. I’m backed by these companies. We have stats, facts, and figures. We’re just going to throw it at you. Oh, you want another one?”
And I feel it’s almost like one of those Captain America moments, you know? I could do this all day. What else do you want? You want references? I got references. Oh, you want insight? I got it. And so that to me is where it’s at. Because you’re not over-proving. You’re also wanting to be helpful. But we’re doing it in a conscious and subconscious way. And so having logos. And it’s kind of like if you had an office.
I remember in one of our earlier offices, the moment you walked in reception, there’s a whole bunch of awards just in the background. We didn’t have a trophy cabinet or anything like that. There was nothing pointing going “awards”, but it’s just on the side. And then another wall had screenshots of our work that we had done. And then you walk past and there was all these touchscreens that had all our work playing on it. And then when you get to the next, and so forth, you didn’t have to say anything.
I remember the first thing that our clients would say when they walked past the reception into our meeting room. And then when you got to the meeting room, there’s a whole other bunch of awards. They’re like, “Wow, you’re pretty established.” I haven’t even said a word yet. I haven’t mentioned I have done anything. I’m just like, “Wow, really? Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thanks for noticing.” But they’re just decorations in the background. And then as we start talking, unpacking, that’s when they go, “Wow, you’re not just good because others say it. I can actually tell there’s actually meaning in what you say and there’s a process, and I love that and I want to be part of that.”
So yeah, so having enough. Is it too much? That’s the question I usually get. I think you can tell when it’s kind of like, okay, slow down, big boy. You know? You’re going a bit too far. But that’s where we have to just try, test, and also ask as well. So yeah.
Rich: So the final question in this list is, how do I get in touch with you? To me, that seems very obvious. Although, you did tell the telephone story earlier in the episode. What are some friction points that prevents visitors from taking that next step and reaching out?
Irwin: In terms of just websites in general, in terms of on websites? think the odd-
Rich: Yeah. Why is that such a difficult thing? It seems like a no-brainer to me, but obviously I’m missing something.
Irwin: Yeah. I think there’s a few things. And I think I’m going to talk about a conversation I had with another conversion specialist. We don’t know what the user is like. They could be an introvert, extrovert, maybe they’re really detailed like my friend who loves to write. He’ll write you a brief. Oh, trust me, his briefs aren’t even brief. Or you might just want to have quick one-liners. I want to make sure I capture everything.
So a phone number is actually very daunting for someone who actually doesn’t like to talk to people. Or like my friend who’s an introvert, she always says to me, “I will never pick up a phone. It’s too daunting. I’d rather shoot an email.” And then I have my mate who says, “I want to submit a whole essay because I want to be detailed,” and that’s the last thing I’d want to do.
And so I think there’s a combination of not enough different types of phone number, email, form, book a demo, I’ll call you back, a chatbot, AI. They all serve different purposes. And having a collection. So it’s almost as much as proof density as it is call to action density as well. You kind of need to have a good smattering of each.
And can I just say as a pro tip, and I wrote this on my LinkedIn recently. Actually, what I really said was call yourself. I know it sounds a bit weird. I’m not desperate for friends, but have you ever tried calling yourself, as in calling the phone number from your phone? Actually pressing the button, filling in your own form, submitting. How many times have I actually tested it.
And this was actually quite embarrassing for one client last week, I won’t mention names. I filled in their form. Not only did the form work when it was incomplete, where I just literally wrote a name, pressed enter, that was incorrect. But when we did get it, there was also some error as well that they never received the email. And so to me, call yourself, email yourself, check your call to actions, have a good amount. Because why would you go on a date if you didn’t get the phone number? That’s what we always say. In the same way, why spend so much money on SEO, AdWords, socials, on marketing, if no one calls you?
Rich: I think that’s great advice. And I’ll just add to it that once a year you should fill out all the forms on your website and see what the thank you page looks like. Because that’s one of the few pages we never see ourselves after we put up the website. And I’ve gone back in and been like, “We don’t even offer that service anymore. That person no longer works at the company,” and then go in and clean that up. So that’s one of those hidden dust balls underneath the bed that you just need to get rid of every once in a while.
Irwin: I love it. A bit of an acknowledgement, a bit of a UX one. Love it. Awesome.
Rich: So many people spend time debating colors, layouts, and creative ideas when it comes to landing pages and other conversion pages on our website. How much of the conversion success, in your opinion, comes from creativity versus, say, understanding human behavior?
Irwin: Yeah. I love the question because I’ve got to give you two options. I feel like I’m on the matrix. I’m going to give you the red pill, blue pill. I’m going to give you a page built with human psychology, and it’s going to be black and white, or really average colors. Let’s get a little bit of color, right? Really average colors, really average graphics, really average fonts.
We might even use Comic Sans versus website, beautifully stunning, modern, clean, wins awards and so forth, but has no human psychology marketing thinking in it, and is therefore, it would almost be slightly vague. Let’s not be too dramatic, okay? It’s going to be slightly vague, a bit more wordy and maybe not as punchy with the densities of proof or call to actions.
If one of those had to represent your business, which one would you choose? I have never had for lead generation businesses, ever choose the more creative one. It’s always been, let’s use basic human psychology, what I call sales design or sales thinking, that will always convert better the design, unless, and there’s a caveat. Because I did have a debate with one person once, unless you are selling visual.
So architects, interior designs, graphics design artists and stuff, you can say nothing because your work does the selling. I’ve fallen in love with you already visually. But outside of that, let’s be honest, if you’re a plumber, lawyer, architect, dentist, a trade, health business, it’s usually not the case. But let’s be honest, why not have both?
And so having the artistry of knowing how to blend that kind of art and science together is where the real magic comes down when it comes to website conversion, and actually having a successful website that actually lasts the distance that you’d have to change every couple of years.
Rich: All right.
Irwin: That’s it.
Rich: Irwin, what’s one myth about conversions at a website that you’d like to put to rest?
Irwin: Yeah, for sure. You don’t have to spend big dollars on conversion. You can actually spend some really simple couple of dollars. And actually, funny enough, to break the myth is why we created ConversionCow. ConversionCow only costs $7.89 per day AU, because we’re in Australia, so it’s slightly cheaper for you guys over in the US.
But you can actually use third-party tools. ConversionCow is just one of them to help service businesses to make minor tweaks. Because it’s the little things, the one percenters on your website, that can actually get you a good jump on your results, especially if you have high traffic websites.
So what could you do yourself? Do I have to buy ConversionCow? No. Actually, I challenge anyone, jump on your own website, do those four questions. You might, after this podcast, look at your own words and just make a word tweak. That’s it. Go to ChatGPT, get it to help you out. You don’t even need something professional to come in to do that.
It could be in an image. The images aren’t clear, they’re generic, they’re stock images. They don’t even look like you. Why don’t you personalize it? Or the last one is, I can’t even find your phone number. Just pop it on the top right. It’s not hard.
So don’t think that CRO or conversion means I have to throw away the whole website and start again. You can do the reno. You don’t have to do a knockdown rebuild or just get a fixer person to come in and do a couple of bits. And that’s why we do a lot of free audits for people so that we just go, “Hey, do this, this, and go do it yourself. And if you need a hand, we’re here for you.” So it’s really simple.
Rich: Awesome. Irwin, if people want to learn more about you, Chromatix, or ConversionCow, where can we send them online?
Irwin: Yeah, fantastic. I’m on LinkedIn. I do post quite a bit and stuff. My name’s Irwin, as in Steve Irwin. Irwin Hau, H-A-U. Or if you want to connect with me outside of LinkedIn or you want to check out our websites, Chromatix, so C-H-R-O-M-A-T-I-X.com.au, because we’re in Australia, or ConversionCow, cow as in beef up your website or milk your website for more leads .com. That’s pretty much it. Love to have a chat.
Rich: Awesome, and as always, we’ll have all of those links in the show notes, so if you missed them, just you’ll find them there in the show notes. Irwin, thank you so much for coming by today. Great conversation.
Irwin: Thanks for having me. Have a good one. Cheers.
Show Notes:
Irwin Hau is the founder of Chromatix and ConversionCow, where he helps businesses improve website performance through conversion strategy, UX, and the psychology of trust. After analyzing more than 70,000 websites, he’s developed practical frameworks that help companies turn more visitors into leads. Be sure to connect with Irwin on LinkedIn.
Rich Brooks is the President of flyte new media, digital agency offering branding, web design, and digital marketing located in Portland, Maine. He is also the founder of the Agents of Change. He’s passionate about helping small businesses grow online and has put his nearly 30 years of experience into the book, The Lead Machine: The Small Business Guide to Digital Marketing.