The Best Joe Pulizzi Interview You’ll Read All Year (Starring @joepulizzi)
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Let’s face it, starting a new business can be time consuming. We all want to start selling our products and services and earning some money as soon as possible. But did you know that trying to rush the process could result in you a becoming an unfavorable statistic of the less than 30% still surviving after the first 10 years?
Finding, getting to know and earning the trust from your key audience will translate to success if you take the time and have the patience to craft your content to their specific needs and pain points. Taking the first 12 months to get up and running may seem like a long time to wait, but your patience can and will translate to success.
Joe Pulizzi’s strength lies in helping businesses become effective content marketers, making them stand out among their peers as leaders in their industry. His proven model for success includes just 6 easy to implement steps that will help your business grow like crazy.
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Rich: Joe Pulizzi is founder of Content Marketing Institute – the leading education and training organization for content marketing – which includes the largest, in person content marketing event in the world called, Content Marketing World.
Joe is the winner of the 2014 John Caldwell Lifetime Achievement Award from the Content Council. Which is weird because Joe is only, like, 15 years old so I can’t believe he’s already gotten a Lifetime Achievement Award. His fourth book is coming out in September called, Content Inc. His third book – which came out before this one – is called, Epic Content Marketing, and it was named one of the five must read business books of 2013 by Fortune Magazine.
Now you can find Joe on Twitter and we’ll have a link to that in the show notes. And if you ever see Joe in person, he’ll be wearing orange, because orange is the new black. Joe, welcome back to the show.
Joe: Thank you. I’m actually wearing orange for you, Rich. I’ve got my orange shoes on and I actually don’t have any other clothes that I could wear that don’t have orange in it. It just makes the entire wardrobe easy.
Rich: That actually answers my first written question which is, “Joe, why orange?”
Joe: Your listeners don’t want to be bored with the whole story behind it, but from an entrepreneurial standpoint and if we had beers in our hands you’d be laughing at it. But the short version is that my kids were down in Florida on vacation – they are 2 and 4 years old – I’m at a large company with an executive position and I had this bug to be an entrepreneur, I wanted to start my own business.
We were playing with this gray and orange volleyball and I hold it up to my wife and say, “These are the colors that we’re going to use for the brand when I create my business some day.” And she looked at me like whatever, just play with the kids and make sure they don’t drown. But that was the start of the orange and gray thing, and of course that’s what my branding was about and it just started to be recognized by the color orange and now I’ve gone off the deep end, Rich, with orange. It’s hideous and it’s a problem and there should probably be a support group.
Rich: Orange is a good color, though. It’s an action color, and yet it’s not red, which might be overused. So I think you chose well.
Joe: It’s now in fashion. If you walk down the street in Midtown and you look the stores all have orange in the window, which I’m assuming in 3-4 months will be out of vogue and nobody will be using it, and yet I’ll still wear orange.
Rich: I didn’t give up flannel after the grunge period ended, and I didn’t start wearing it because of it, so you know. Sometimes you just gotta stick with with you know.
Joe: I’ll be hip for a very short period of time and then I’ll be like everyone else.
Rich: And then you’ll be hip again. I almost wonder if your orange thing is like Mari Smith’s turquoise thing that she went through for a while. Some people have socks, others have bowties, so you just kind of become recognizable for these things.
Joe: Well – I’m not saying this to brag – but every couple weeks somebody will send me something orange in the mail. I have a whole desk full of orange stuff that people send me. They’ll say, “Oh Joe, I thought of you.” And that’s good, people are thinking of me when they’re walking around. I talked to Mari about that and I was very disappointed that she went away from the turquoise.
Rich: She did, but women have to change more often than men.
Joe: I disagree with that. I think if somebody recognizes you for something you lean into that thing as hard as you can and you take advantage of it.
Rich: Absolutely. If some guy is out there and he sees another hunter and he doesn’t shoot him and he says, “I’m thinking of Joe Pulizzi”, that’s only good for you.
Joe: Yes, of course.
Rich: The same thing happens with me with zombies. As a joke years ago I put into my Twitter handle, “I love long walks on the beach and killing zombies”, and people started sending me zombie stuff, dropping things off in my office, and I actually ended up in a Hollywood movie filmed here in Portland, Maine where I was one of the featured zombies. And it all came about because of this one-off joke. But then like you said, I just kind of leaned into it when I saw a reaction.
Joe: Embrace the silliness. It usually ends up into revenue, believe it or not, that’s the thing that kills me about it.
Rich: Alright, so enough about colors. Let’s shift into why I asked you to join us today. You’ve got your fourth book coming out – and your books are primarily about content – so what’s the concept behind Content Inc., your new book, compared to some of the other stuff you’ve written in the past?
Joe: The other 3 books are squarely targeted to enterprise marketers. So if you’re a marketer in a very, very large business and you’re trying to figure out this complex thing called “content marketing” – which in large companies is really complex, political and hard to pull off – well, those are the other 3 books. This was actually initially a selfish endeavor, I wanted to write the story of what we did at CMI and how we use content marketing and how we built it on no money at all and we followed this model. And I thought I can’t just talk about myself, that’s going to be incredibly boring.
So I started to figure out, well then lets talk about other examples and other companies that were able to do this. And I didn’t actually know if I was alone or not. I didn’t know how many people followed this thing where I’m going to start an audience first and create amazing content to a targeted audience – without actually launching a product or service to monetize it – and I’m going to build this base and build these subscribers and then create a business model on the backend. I wondered if anyone else was doing this, and then I thought, there’s Brian Clark at Copyblogger Media, there’s Rand Fishkin over at Moz.
(Get more content marketing advice from Content Marketing Institute’s own Robert Rose!)
There’s dozens and dozens of the weirdest examples that you would think of, and what we did was we just re-engineered the model. We looked and everyone was using the same 6 steps. They didn’t use it in the same time period, but they used the same 6 steps which is what we call the “Content Inc. Model” for how you build an audience through amazing content on a consistent basis and then monetize that after the fact. And I honestly think the reason that I’m excited about it is this is the way you start businesses today, this is a better way to go to market than to actually think that we actually have the product or service that’s amazing and differentiated and we can go out there and sell it and put a lot of money behind it. I think the better way to do it is just go out and build an audience that knows, likes and trusts you, and then ultimately you’ll know them better than anyone else, you’ll understand what products or services you can actually sell them. And since they know, like and trust you, they’ll buy whatever you want to sell them. And that’s what the Content Inc. Model is all about.
Rich: Alright, so I buy into that model for sure, but I know that there are probably people who are listening to the show – or perhaps not listening to the show – who are like, “That’s great, but I need to make money now. So the bottom line is it’s wonderful for me to go out there and give away all my best information and spend all my time and energy creating this content so that other people can go off and live a better life or have a bigger business. Meanwhile, I’m in the poorhouse creating content with no money.” What do you say to people who aren’t ready to have that leap of faith that one day monetization will come?
Joe: Just look at the regular statistics for entrepreneurial startups and small business success, they’re horrendous. If you look at any of them you say, ok, after 3-5 years there’s 50% of us left that survive, after 10 years it’s less than 30%. If you’re a first time startup the success rate is about 17-18%. If you look at Y Combinator – which is probably the biggest accelerator on the planet – their success rate is 10%. Seriously? We can do better than that.
So my thing is, does this take time, yes. On average it takes a little more more than 12 months to get this thing really working to monetization. By the way, even though the 6th step in the model is monetization, you should be trying to monetize as soon as you can. You don’t have to wait, the challenge is it takes a little bit of time to build a loyal audience. This is not a campaign, it doesn’t happen overnight. You have to prove yourself every day, every week, every month that you’re going to deliver value through whatever system you’re going to deliver value with to whatever audience, so it does take time.
Now what we have found here is if you can be a little bit patient – and do whatever you can and sell what you can – but you can start this process now because what we found out is once you get to a point of a minimum, viable audience and you have subscribers that have become buyers for whatever you sell, you will start to grow faster than most every other company in your category because you already have a built in customer base. And that’s what’s amazing. If you look at the SME’s – Social Media Examiner’s, The Moz’s, The Copyblogger’s – and what we’ve done at Content Marketing Institute they’ve taken a while to build but once they get to that point they grow like crazy, faster than average because you already know what you need to sell them because you know your audience better than everyone else and you have your prospect list.
So yes to those people that are anxious, I get it, I was too. I started the business in 2007 and almost closed up shop in 2009 because I wasn’t patient enough. It wasn’t until a year later that we really hit it. I was within probably 6 months from just going back and getting what I thought was a “real job” so I could pay the bills and make sure the kids had food on the table, to creating one of the fastest growing businesses in the United States, and that still freaks me out a little bit. That’s a 6 month period that I could have just ruined my life if I’d have given up, but it’s amazing what can happen when you build an audience.
Rich: And I will say it wasn’t called “content marketing” when I started doing it. And I didn’t really know what I was doing back then, but I had more time then money at that point, and more time than clients, and so I actually started a print newsletter – just to show you how long ago when I got started – just because I wanted to educate my customers. When I started what is now Flyte New Media back in 1997 and the primary search engine was Alta Vista, so I was teaching people about how to get found in Alta Vista, but creating content that provided value to my customers. I think I just did it because I didn’t know what else to do, but over time that content made it to my website and made it to the search engines, and that’s when things really started to take off for our business.
So I totally believe in it, and if you’re out there listening right now and you’re thinking I just don’t have the bandwidth to do this, I really have to say that you need to find that time, that bandwidth, to start creating content. And like you said, Joe, it’s kind of a long term investment. The content you write today may continue to be paying off for you months and even years down the line.
Joe: And the other thing on bandwidth – you did it and I did it – most of these startups that we talk about in the book are now multimillion dollar, fast growing enterprises where it was just one person and they did it usually sort of on their free time. It does take commitment and it does take time, I don’t want to minimize it, but it didn’t take a lot of money for them to do it. It just took passion and a desire to do it and consistency, because as you know most of the stuff doesn’t work because people stop, they’re not consistent and they stop after 5-6 months and don’t give it the patience it needs. But then it absolutely does work, and that’s what just amazes me is the amount of cases we found where this actually can work and can happen. Yes, it’s a different way to do it, but if you believe in it there’s actually a process.
For you and I that sort of stumbled upon it – what I call a “happy accident” – we stumbled upon this model, and now there’s actually a model. You can actually follow the model and do it and learn from all of us that have already put in the time to make it happen.
Rich: I like the idea of there being a model because I think what happens is too many people get impatient, pull the cake out of the oven before it’s done and then wonder why it doesn’t taste very good. So getting back to that, I’m a big fan of framework and it sounds like you’ve got a framework with Content Inc. that can work for small businesses and entrepreneurs, so can you kind of just list off those 6 steps and what they mean?
Joe: Absolutely, I’d love to. I call it the “Content Inc. Model” now and this is what every one of the startups and small businesses use and we basically reverse engineered the model and this is what we came up with.
The first is what is that sweet spot. And the sweet spot is the intersection between something that you are very passionate about, and something that you also have some kind of authority to communicate on. So if it’s like in Ann Reardon’s case with How To Cook That, she was a qualified dietician, so she was very, very qualified to talk about recipes and food and nutrition and those types of things. Matthew Patrick – he’s Mat Pat on YouTube – he created the game theory platform for 4.8 million subscribers, multimillionaire, amazing fast growing company. He had a knowledge over analytics that nobody else had and he really understood it. He also had a real passion for videogames. Put them together and that became his sweet spot.
So to step 2, that’s where nobody takes enough time and it’s what we call the “content tilt”. Basically what is your area of content competition where you can actually be the leading expert in the world, and that’s where you have to get really, really niche and not go broad with your content but go very focused on a very small audience base that you’re trying to target. And once you figure that out, the you build the base.
Step 3 is building the base, and this is the thing that most companies – not even just startups, Rich – get wrong because they think they have to create more content and put it everywhere, but that’s totally not true. What you want to do, it you look at the way these startups really were successful, they built the base, they focused on one content type – is it audio, is it video, it is textual – and then one platform – YouTube, blog, iTunes – then consistently delivered content over time. It’s a really easy formula to remember, you build the base over time.
Step 4, harvest the audience. And specifically in almost all cases it was the focus on email subscribers. Build a database of email subscribers that can become your future customer database.
Once you get to the minimum viable audience, you harvest them in step 4 and then step 5 is diversification. So you focused on building that platform – that could be a blog, an iTunes podcast or a video series on YouTube – then you go into step 5 where you might say like you did, “Hey, I’m going to start a print newsletter.” We started a print magazine, we started Content Marketing World, we started the podcast, we started to diversify to bring in newer audiences to our main platform.
Then step 6 is monetization, and everybody monetizes differently. Copyblogger monetizes by selling his rainmaker products and services, Moz has his SEO services package that he sells, you’ve got Michelle Phan who does partnerships with Target and Microsoft on her design concepts and became a millionaire behind that. It’s just amazing what the different models are.
There are 9 different ways to monetize the content. Some of them are media companies, some of them just sell products and services. I think it’s the most democratic way that you can go launch your business in the world, I think it’s the least capital intensive model and it’s – if you have the patience – I think it’s your best model for success with a startup instead of going out like I did initially – I did, I don’t know if you did, RIch – and said, “I have the greatest concept in the world to launch a business” and I thought everyone will want to buy it, until nobody did. Luckily the whole time I was building an audience and was able to pivot and actually find the monetization that worked which for us is mostly in the live event business.
Rich: I love that. And I’ve heard of a lot of frameworks through this show and in meeting people and I have to say that this is one of the clearest paths to success that I’ve ever heard. And I just want to kind of summarize for people who are trying to take notes at home, and of course we’re going to have this in the show notes.
The 6 steps to your Content Inc. success is to find your sweet spot and that’s kind of where you’re expertise lies and overlays with your passion. Then you want to move into your content, you want to spend a lot of time figuring out how you become the best in the world no matter how small you have to niche down to get there.
The third one is build your base, and if I understand correctly, that’s mostly about choosing your strongest platform. Maybe it’s the written word, maybe it’s a podcast, maybe you’re gorgeous and you deserve to be on YouTube. Four is harvest the audience, and that’s really all about email subscribers. And that’s what I love about this show, no matter what their platform is they always talk about how important it is to build that list.
Five is now that we’ve got our audience it’s time to diversify and kind of divide and conquer and find other platforms that we might be successful on. But that’s only after we’ve successfully found our best platform and built an audience there do we start exploring into other platforms as well.
And after all that comes the stage of monetization, and as you mentioned there’s about nine different ways depending on how you want to organize it to make money from this audience by serving this audience.
Joe: You said it much better than I did.
Rich: No, I just took good notes.
Joe: I’m going to hire you, Rich, because that’s the most succinct overview of the content.
Rich: I really love it! Honestly this makes a lot of sense, and of course you are preaching to the choir with me because I have seen it work time and time again and I have seen from building over 500 websites of all the people who have tried and failed because they didn’t stick to the path.
Now never before do I think I had such a clear path that I could say to somebody, “Look at Joe’s model, I think it’s going to work for you.” So this is going to be incredibly helpful, not just to the people listening but also in my own businesses I tried to shepherd people into small business success, so thank you for that.
Joe: I’m excited about this. I was talking to Brian Clark from Copyblogger Media and I was telling him the story that I was on this panel of venture capitalists and they were talking about the best way to launch a business, you’ve got to go out and get money and all this stuff that you and I hear in the industry about all these companies getting money and then coming up with a product and most of them failing anyways. And I get up there – they probably hated me – because I’m saying I think they’re all wrong and crazy to go out and think that they actually can create a better product. Can you do it? Absolutely. Look at Tesla, Airbnb, Uber, Google, those are few and far between.
Most of us can hedge our bets and it’s like the stock markets, you have a 55 chance of winning all the money you need or you will probably fail. I don’t like those odds, I want to diversify, I want to have lots of different stocks so that I can hedge my bets and I think that’s where Content Inc. comes in. So I tell them I think there’s a better way, build an audience and them understand the audience better than anyone else. And if you understand that audience better than anyone else – and you will because you’re creating content to them everyday – you will be able to figure out faster than anyone else what products and services they need.
Rich: I think that’s absolutely true, and just understanding and focusing on that business avatar, it is so critically important with these sort of things. Now as I mentioned to you before we started recording, I just recently got a pre-ordered copy of the book and only had enough time to skim it so I could come up with some questions for today, but every time I started a new section just to learn what was the content tilt or harvesting the audience, I immediately got sucked into the book. And I’m not just saying that, I really did, it’s a great read and there are a lot of great examples, more than we have time to go into today.
But I did have a few questions and one is about this “content tilt”. I’m sure a lot of people who are listening are like me, I write about small business all the time but there’s only about a billion other people on the planet writing about the same topic. So how do I get my content to stand out? I don’t think necessarily I‘m going to be the best in the world talking about this, so where does content tilt come in to help me find my voice so I can find my audience?
Joe: It’s so critical. And by the way, no big business does this either. I talk about this in the book, just type into Google “SEO book”, how many agencies have an SEO book, everybody has one. There’s 11 million of them out there, we’re all covering the same things. In the book I love the conversation I had with Jay Baer – author of Youtility – but he was talking about a knitting blog and he said “Let’s say you wanted to start a knitting blog, there’s already about 100 other knitting blogs out there, what’s going to make that person that you’re trying to target jump from the knitting blog that they’ve been reading for 3 years to your knitting blog?” Absolutely nothing because you’re just talking about knitting.
So then we talked about his book and 10 different ways that you could find your tilt. One of them that I loved is leveraging Google Trends. I love Google Trends free tool, you can go and find out search trends traction over time and what people are typing in. Let’s say you typed in “knitting”, you would then go to the bottom and see what are some break out terms in knitting that maybe people aren’t offering that are just starting to get some traction. In the book we used the example “the knitting loom is breaking out” to “knitting for beginners”.
You can go into all different kinds of areas where you find your area of non competition and you can actually dominate that area. We have to focus on what are our audience pain points that we’re really trying to target and what’s an area not being covered that we can actually be a leading expert in the world. I’ll give you one example because I think it’s a good one. If you look at Ann Reardon, she went from 100 subscribers on YouTube in 2012, she has 1.7 million now and is incredibly successful, and she’s known as the “baking queen of Sydney, Australia”. She has a passion for teaching and education and she has an authority area, she’s a qualified food scientist. But still, how many baking blogs are out there? A million. How is she going to separate and cut through the clutter, nobody’s going to care? She focused her content tilt on incredibly impossible food creations. Like she said, “How do I take 5lbs of Snickers bars and put them into a cake?” Did you see the video she did of the Instagram cake?
Rich: I didn’t, but that was one of the sections that I got pulled into so I do know the story.
Joe: You gotta check it out. Basically it looks like a regular chocolate cake on the outside but then you cut into it and it’s an exact replica of the instagram logo, it totally went viral. But after she’s building content every week on these videos, but that’s what she’s focused on and everyone expects that. If I want to go to a recipe site, Ann is not the one. But if I want to see or make really impossible things and what you can do with baking, Ann Reardon is the person.
So it’s that kind of thing and really thinking about where can you be the leading informational expert in the world and it takes some thinking. Like pet supplies, you can’t just do a pet supplies blog because PetSmart and Petco will eat you alive because they’re spending a billion dollars. But if you wanted to be the leading expert on targeting pet dog owners that are from the southeast area of Florida that like to travel with their pets in recreational vehicles, that’s how specific I want you to get.
Rich: Yeah, absolutely. I really liked the section you had in the book on Google Trends because I’m a big fan of Google Trends, but I had never used it for anything more than writing a specific blog post. I really love the idea of actually finding your niche by doing some homework in Google Trends, so that was very cool.
And then the other thing that everybody is always asking about and my experts are always talking about is getting that audience, getting the email subscriber list. Can you just give us a couple tips for how you’ve seen companies build their email lists by leveraging their content?
Joe: First of all, I don’t have a problem with building audiences on other platforms, don’t get me wrong. But in the book, as you know, I’ve got “email subscription” and under that is “print subscribers”, and then it goes down, You’ve got “LinkedIn followers” and at the very bottom is “Facebook”. Sorry, it is. The issue that I have is when you build your audience on social platforms you’ve got to remember that’s not your audience, you don’t’ have control over any audience but you have almost no control at all over the names that you access to that audience.
For example, we’ve seen what happens with Facebook. You can have a million followers and fans on Facebook but all of a sudden Facebook makes a decision and says they’re not going to show your content anymore. So that’s the type of thing that we want to make sure we have as much control over as possible focusing on email as the primary. That’s what we see in almost every situation, even the ones like your Matthew Patrick’s of the world that build their channels on YouTube. They’re trying to say that a YouTube subscription is fine, but we’re trying to get people to sign up for our emails so we have some control over that platform just like a media company would do.
So there’s a couple of things that over and over came up in each of these examples and some people might not want to hear this but it’s the truth in a lot of cases, when you get people to your website popovers were used in almost every situation. So basically what happens is if you go to a page of content – you might be going to a blog – and then you’ll see a popover. Some people think of it as a pop up but it’s really a popover. And it says, “Hey, you like this content? Would you like to sign up and here’s a really good offer like an ebook or a white paper or research report.” And I’ve got to tell you, Rich, when I first started getting into this and I knew we needed to build our email subscription list, I knew that way what a lot of the leaders were doing but I didn’t want to do it because I felt a little like a used car salesman.
Well, when we started to grow our subscribers by 65% immediately I said there was something to this, but when I found out that those people that signed up through the popovers become some of our best customers, then I was sold. And then what we found out was John Lee Dumas of Entrepreneur On Fire does the same thing, Brian Clark, Rand Fishkin does the same thing. Over and over again we find this popover situation that’s happening. Maybe if everyone starts doing it it won’t work some day, but we still see over and over – even today – that these are working really well.
Another really good one is Slideshare, so if you embed your Powerpoint presentation into Slideshare and then somebody wants to download it, you can say, “Hey, do you like this content? We’d love to sign you up for our e-newsletter because it’s great and awesome and you’re going to get value out of it”, and then that’s out 3rd best subscription source.
It’s just remembering when you get people to your content, don’t throw them products or demos or services right away. What you want to do is get them a really good content offer so that you can get them in your email subscription database. So you can find out in almost every case once they know, like and trust you more, you deliver regular content to them through an email, they’re more apt to ultimately buy your products and services down the road.
Rich: Absolutely. And I’ve had the same hesitations on my own websites about adding popover boxes – or lightboxes, as some people call them – and when I’ve succumbed to the dark side I always find that I pull in much bigger lists, and those lists can often be much more interested in your products or services. And like you say, maybe one day it won’t work and we’ll have to find another way to kind of break through. But the bottom line is, it is effective now, and until everyone starts doing it the people who are listening to this show should definitely try it.
Joe: When you look at all the examples in the book the thing is you don’t sell in the content. So youre not selling products and services and the content, you usually end up using email as some kind of a tool to get people notified about your products and services. So that’s the difference. And people are welcome to that, they want something that’s relevant to them and that’s where you can leverage that email and actually have direct access to them and you don’t have to be beholden to a YouTube that might say they’re not going to show your video or a Facebook that’s not going to show your content post which they absolutely have every right.
I was thinking about this – I don’t know how you think about it, Rich – but I think of every social channel as I might wake up tomorrow and I might not have access to it anymore, because Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube or Facebook might make the decision to say they won’t show your content anymore. So with that kind of mentality I’m always thinking about how I could use those channels to generate our own email subscribers, which I think is of the most value.
Rich: I’m in complete agreement, I tell all of our clients because they ask us to add social media links to their website – which of course is the easiest thing ever -so I tell them we can do that, but I want you to think twice about it. The purpose of that link is not to send traffic to Facebook, the purpose of Facebook is to send traffic to your website where you can get them to opt into your email newsletter. And very often you see the light bulb go off at that moment because up until then they were thinking of how can I help Facebook get more users and have more people spend time there. It’s like, no, that’s not your job. Your job is to get people off of Facebook or LinkedIn or Pinterest and come to your site where you can engage with them.
Joe, I could talk to you for hours, I love this stuff, and I can tell that how passionate you are about this. But lets talk just a little bit about your book. Where can people find this book online, where can they follow you and connect with you online?
Joe: The easiest way to go is www.content-inc.com, that has the free chapter that you can get, it has the book and the information and all the relevant events around that, so definitely go there. Of course it’s on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, it comes out officially September 8th and we launch it at our big Content Marketing World.
And anything on me can be found at www.joepulizzi.com or on Twitter @Joe Pulizzi. If you send me a personal note that you really dug the book or something like that, I do my best to get back because I’m still in awe that people actually read my stuff. So I just want to thank as many people as possible. I don’t always do it in a 24 hour period but if you send something personal I try to get back to you.
Rich: Awesome. Joe, thank you very much for making time for us today, I learned a lot.
Joe: Rich, thank you so much, always appreciate your support man.
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